BC109.

[abendx]

[quote="Dirty LJ"]Hey guys, remind me never to cross Desert Dog and Abendx [/quote]

Just don't try and take away our guns and access to public land and I think you'll be safe.

[quote="Blax Rubi"]With that said, I hope that no one minds but I will text or email Bull dog, one of the Main mods from CI, to please join in on this thread as sometimes, this is the best way to get answers from a main source (in regards to the clubs getting along or not). I think everyones voice should be heard in all this. Being that both Kat and Bull Dog know eachother, hopefully they will both be available to answer these questions and facilitate in creating a resolution to anything that needs to be addressed [/quote]

Once again... we welcome open discussion and I seriously doubt anyone will get banned around here for voicing their opinion. You are welcome to call John (BULLDOG) or anyone else you think might be able to add to this discussion.

Hopefully John and CI4x4 had nothing to do with this land grab (I was told by someone I trust that they were not). I think they are a nice group of people and have wheeled with them in the past and hope to do more of it in the future... but if they are part of the VC4WD and Sierra Club's agenda, I will reevaluate my association with that group and its membership.

[Desert Dog]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]Wow, I guess things have heated up a bit since I was on here last

It is a really good thing that there is some open coversation on this topic and hopefully everyone can work out any questions there might be on this matter... as I am sure we can all agree, this is the only way to get the facts straight.
With that said, I hope that no one minds but I will text or email Bull dog, one of the Main mods from CI, to please join in on this thread as sometimes, this is the best way to get answers from a main source (in regards to the clubs getting along or not). I think everyones voice should be heard in all this. Being that both Kat and Bull Dog know eachother, hopefully they will both be available to answer these questions and facilitate in creating a resolution to anything that needs to be addressed [/quote]
Rubi, I, and most of the folks on this forum don't really care about politics between clubs and their members. Some might get involved in it, but the vast majority really don't care. I, as well as most on here will pretty much wheel with anyone from any club - and I have personally wheeled with several members of both clubs (including Bull Dog) and had a great time. The topic of this thread is a trail closure that some of us do not agree with, and unless outside people have information to add on that topic, I don't see their involvement as being constructive in anyway; your just going to make a shit sandwich and the Infectious board will be the turd caught in the middle. I don't post gossip or really care about it, and have gone out of my way to research and post information to back up my findings instead of regurgitating what others have told me. Like I stated a couple posts back, I am going to walk this trail with my GPS on Monday when I go up there to wheel. and I will post what I find.

Bottom line: Either the trail was closed wrongly or legitimately. If the Forestry service claims to have shut it down because it enters the Chumash Wilderness (as Kat stated), and I can confirm that the trail does not, I think we have a good case to get it reopened. If it does enter the Wilderness, then it is lost forever.

[Blax Rubi]

Please let me clarify, I did not say, or hint, that John nor CI was a part of a "land grab" or anything of the sort.
I understand that this is a heated topic, but please just slow down for a moment and see what I wrote. I brought in John in regards to the Clubs getting along or not and thought it might help.
No one here has some hidden agenda to close trails or be apart of the problem. All groups, whether they are VC, CI, or Pt. M, are all nice people. Often, it is a misunderstood comment or story that is told that creates these problems.
I agree that all voices should be heard, so please hear mine for one moment. The people who want to help with trails are doing so because they really do think that they are helping to do something good. Whether this is a manipulation by the Sierra Club and or by the Rangers can be a great topic to address. However, putting people down because they were just trying to help is not the way to go about it.
Come on, we should all be on the same page here:
protect our trails/land and screw the sierra club!

Our anger should be directed towards that, not eachother.

[abendx]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]Please let me clarify, I did not say, or hint, that John nor CI was a part of a "land grab" or anything of the sort.[/quote]

Gotcha! I wasn't insinuating that you said CI4x4 was part of VC4WD's assist to close a trail. If I understood you correctly, you were going to bring him here to straighten out what I said about VC4WD being the rejects from CI4x4 and Point Mugu. Really... that has nothing to do with the trail closure and I should have never added it to the discussion. Why and by whom VC4WD was created is not of concern and DESERT DOG stated it right... I was wrong for adding it and it has no bearing on this issue. My personal decision to not want to associate with those who might bed down with the likes of the Sierra Club may not be the decision others make.

[Blax Rubi]

[quote="desert dog"]
Rubi, I, and most of the folks on this forum don't really care about politics between clubs and their members. Some might get involved in it, but the vast majority really don't care. I, as well as most on here will pretty much wheel with anyone from any club - and I have personally wheeled with several members of both clubs (including Bull Dog) and had a great time. The topic of this thread is a trail closure that some of us do not agree with, and unless outside people have information to add on that topic, I don't see their involvement as being constructive in anyway.
Bottom line: Either the trail was closed wrongly or legitimately. If the Forestry service claims to have shut it down because it enters the Chumash Wilderness (as Kat stated), and I can confirm that the trail does not, I think we have a good case to get it reopened. If it does enter the Wilderness, then it is lost forever.[/quote]

I completely agree with you and agree to address the main point at hand: the trail closure.
I guess it's the mom in me that just tries to help everyone get along
With that said, I really look forward to your post on Sunday and REALLY hope there is some lead way towards being able to legally wheel Snaggle tooth again

[Desert Dog]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]I guess it's the mom in me that just tries to help everyone get along[/quote]

Or the woman in you looking for a good fight

[Eye4Mud]

Wow where to start.....

[quote="abendx"]I guess I found some of it....

[img]http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/35/55/47385535/photos/Summer-Kickoff-Trail-Maintenance-05-22-10/P5220024.JPG[/img]

These pieces of shit are using built rigs to close a trail..... shame on them![/quote]

Pieces of shit? That is my rig and I happily helped move several allready fallen tree's into the path of this illegal trail, as it leads into an area that is wilderness. Maybe you should get your facts straight before calling names.

[quote="castor07jk"]We do the same thing on Freeway Ridge to block illegal bypasses and trails in conjunction with the Forest Service.

If you move the tree after its been marked closed, we risk loosing all the trails in the area. Don't be part of the problem.[/quote]

That is exactly right and exactly why these trees were moved and a sign placed there.

[quote="abendx"]Thanks Chris... good info.

This is bad for the Off Road community. I don't care what anyone's good intentions might be. In my opinion, bending over and taking it up the rear for the Sierra Club can be likened to 1930/40s Germans turning their head while the Nazis carted the Jews off. You know what.... scratch that last comment. Those that assisted in closing this trail aren't like the ones that turned their heads.... they are more like the ones that physically assisted stuffing them into ovens.

Please take a minute to thank the VC4WD club.... they are actively assisting the Sierra Club reach their goals.[/quote]

Again showing your intelligence.... or lack of. Why dont you actually do some homework and find our what is really going on before you post crap like that??



VC4x4 is a stand up club and I am proud to be associated with them and several other clubs. I actually participate in activities that help keep our trails open such as adopt a trail, volunteer work for the forest service and resource management and restoration projects. I get out and enjoy wheeling and our natural resources as many of you do that the whole reason behind clubs to join together and work for the greater good not point fingers and all this bull.

[Blax Rubi]

[quote="desert dog"][quote="Blax Rubi"]I guess it's the mom in me that just tries to help everyone get along[/quote]

Or the woman in you looking for a good fight [/quote]

I wish I could say that were the case (ask those who know me, as I am not much of a spit fire) ... Instead, it's just me trying to help, but instead, digging myself in deeper

[Desert Dog]

Pics too big, cant read text on my Mobi. Something about Abendx and the guy pulling trees to close the trail trolling for some action?

Rubi, you should use your moderating abilities to put together a "wheel off" between these guys. I got a Benjamin on Abendx

[Eye4Mud]

A wheel off?? lol All I will say is that not many will take the same lines I take.

[Angel]

I thought I left my old hood to get away from gangs...

[Hot4jeepin]

To start off with a person who is banned is someone who will never be heard from again. I told Desert Dog that if he felt we removed him for the wrong reason, I would be happy to add him back, and he is currently back on our site.

I am planning on calling and emailing the Ranger tomorrow to verify what she explained to our group about Dome Springs Closing. If I misunderstood her for some reason I will own up to it.

Abendx - I would like to know what trails VC4WD has closed down and what other horrible things our group has done to become such scum of the earth. It is difficult to defend ourselves against vague accusations and mysterious "reliable" sources. It also amazes me that you can compare the Holocaust and the atrocities that were done against 6 million innocent people to a area being marked as off limits to motor vehicles.

[Desert Dog]

Im still ready for Rubi to set up that wheel off.

[Eye4Mud]

Well, I tend to think that blaxrubi will be partial to me as she is a close friend Anyway I am going to hit the trails today have a foood 4th of july!

[abendx]

[quote="Eye4Mud"]People like abendx are the type that tear down signs, go around blocked trails or make new illegal ones[/quote]

Blah, blah, blah.... all I heard was that you actually used your rig with a smile to close a trail.

As for your insinuation that I go around, make illegal, etc.... get some pictures of me doing this. We have a picture of you closing a trail (read: proof that you do close trails and you even added that you enjoyed doing so). Do you have pictures of me traversing a blocked trail? If you can find or take that picture, I'll buy you a 18 pack of your favorite beer (which I assume is root beer).

[quote="desert dog"]the guy pulling trees to close the trail trolling for some action?[/quote]

I knew there was something fishy about that guy.... I guess I didn't see him looking at my ass. Dude, I appreciate the interest, but I don't go that way. They have other websites on the internet that might suit your lifestyle better. As for wheeling with him, I might be down for that... as long as we don't pick a mall in West Hollywood. I don't need a gang of angry pole smoking cheerleaders attacking me after I win the speed bump pose.

[quote="Eye4Mud"]All I will say is that not many will take the same lines I take.[/quote]

I am a lady (no offense to your orientation or the actual ladies) at the mall.... I am sure you take much harder lines than I do. You might even drive your Jeep in the dirt

[quote="Hot4jeepin"]I would like to know what trails VC4WD has closed down[/quote]

Please refer to the topic of this thread.

[csquared]

you've gotta be kidding me abendx... at what point in your last post did at all make any vaild points that have to do with the thread topic??? All you did was start bashing people. GROW UP and pull your head out.

The sierra club tells the forestry service what areas where vehicles are not allowed. the Group that adopts the trail goes out WITH the forestry ranger and becomes educated on what areas are in and out of limits.

has anyone ever seen "snaggletooth" trail on a forestry map??? Most likely not.. why? because it was made and named by the uneducated 4x4ing community.

If one were to go to the every end of dome springs, and drop into the wash where "snaggletooth" begins and look 75 yards across the wash, they would see a WILDERNESS area sign that was already in place. So by becoming educated by the ranger VC4WD helped keep the sierra club off her back, and out of that area before they had a chance to shut down EVEN MORE of the wash.

I am a proud, strong and active member of VC4WD. I was more then happy to help move downed trees (NOT CUT DOWN TREES). For those who are uneducated a DOWNED tree is a tree that fell by its own cause and not by man. Being told BY the ranger that it is ok to move DOWNED trees to block a area was more then acceptable so we as a group did so while TWO forestry service rangers watched our every move.

VC4WD again had no part in CLOSING ANY TRAILS and will never CLOSE a trail that is legal by the state of california means.

If you have a problem please e-mail me and i will help educate with the help of the forestry service.

Chris Lopez
cslopez73@gmail.com

[CI4X4]

I am the site owner/admin at CI4X4 and I have a few points to make.
With all due respect, No one from VC4WD is or hasever been a CI4X4 reject. The seperation made between current VC members and CI was based on nothing short of different philosophies.
Please refrain from making such statements on our behalf. Additionally, the VC folks acting with the absolute best of intentions have adopted BC 109 for the benefit of all with a "Greater Good" mentality. When you "Adopt-A-Trail" you place yourself at the behest and request of the United States Forest service and as such must follow the direction of the USFS at all times. I said this earlier but my post was somehow lost (user error?) and I feel this has gone too far.

My understanding is that "Snaggletooth" was never intended to be a trail and others may argue it was. Regardless, VC4WD followed the direction of the USFS as per their agreement with them. Yes, we lost a finger but we kept the hand. The 80% plan wins every time. Consider the alternative; VC refuses to comply with the Ranger's direction and BOOM! The reaction from USFS begins. Where would that place us now? Without a BC 109?

Is the Siera Club behind this? Perhaps. Was full disclosure not made to VC4WD? Maybe. Is there cowardly under handed behavior and beuraucracy poisoning the well we all drink from? Sip slowly my friends. But nonetheless, VC did not want to close a trail, they've wheeled there too. I know, I was with 'em. Punishing someone for doing a job for free that no one else stepped up to do is wrong. BC 109 is cleaner and in better shape because a group of people with high regard for what we love took on the labor intensive task of making it better.

Who do we really have a beef with?

[abendx]

[quote="CI4X4"]Who do we really have a beef with?[/quote]

It is the Sierra Club that *I* have a beef with.... but as it turns out, I also fault those whom assist them with achieving their end results. Whether they know it or not. Personally, I could not be involved in closing a trail, unless it was for a safety issue. But that is just me. For those of you that do not know the Sierra Clubs end desire... just imagine a world where you can never use public land again to enjoy your off road hobby.

As for the continued questions regarding where I got my info... I am not sure that person wants anyone to know their identity. I did go and try and talk to that person today, but they were very busy and we never got to that topic. I will approach them with this question soon and will open the dialog to you with them if they feel comfortable with that. That person's word was "reject," not mine. They also told me of other nasties accomplished by some of the membership of VC4WD. As I said... these things make me despise that group on principal. Anyone that knows me knows that honesty and integrity are number one in my book and that I hold myself to those ideals, as I hold others to them that I associate with. That person has always seemed to steer me right and seems to do a lot for the off road community. Many of you know the person in question and most of you respect that person from what I have seen and heard. Although... everyone has their enemies.

I will apologize that I cannot divulge that info now and will respect the desires of the other person in question if they do not want to be known.

The statement made by Blax Rubi, "As the Ranger, who is a friend of mine, mentioned, it cannot be deemed as a trail as it does not have a clear and accessible exit" leads me to believe that all of BC109 is on target for being closed. Does this bother anyone but me?

Friends... you are either with the Sierra Club or not. I cannot personally respect anyone that wants to close public access to public land.

[Hot4jeepin]

For the third time, what nasty, horrible things have VC4WD done? What supposed trails have we closed down? I am not asking for the name of your "source", just the supposed activities. It is funny to me how you have been asked this same questions over and over and have yet to give a response. I am sorry that your friend had or has a problem with some of the VC4WD members, but unless you know us or have wheeled with us you really should not be bashing us!

[Desert Dog]

[quote="csquared"]The sierra club tells the forestry service what areas are where vehicles are not allowed. the Group that adopts the trail goes out WITH the forestry ranger and becomes educated on what areas are in and out of limits.[/quote]
So you are basically getting your information from the Sierra Club, which is a organization you claim to not trust, then call everyone else stupid for not for taking their word with a grain of salt. FYI, the FS ROUTINELY closes trails at the request of the Sierra Club that turn out to not be in wilderness areas (Kern Plateau for example). You kind of entered this debate looking not so good so far.

[quote="csquared"]has anyone ever seen "snaggletooth" trail on a forestry map??? Most likely not.. why? because it was made and named by the uneducated 4x4ing community.[/quote]
Typical condescending dribble, not unlike what comes from the mouths of tofu eating Sierra Club members. I cant stand it when a newbie joins a club and gets a high and mighty attitude toward other wheelers. If the off-road community is so stupid, than what are you? FYI; the uneducated folks at the CI4x4 club named it "Sanaggletooth", and the uneducated folks with the Frazier Mt Club have called it "Oil-Pan Alley" since before you even thought about getting a 4x4. All the other toothless degenerates that lack your superior off-road knowledge call it "one of those BC109 trails".

[quote="csquared"]go to the every end of dome springs, and drop into the wash where "snaggletooth" begins and look 75 yards across the wash, they would see a WILDERNESS area sign that was already in place[/quote] Sorry to give you this little bit of edumacation, but if you go to dome springs, drop in the wash and run that wash as far east as you can - you are still outside the wilderness area. The wilderness boundary runs along the north of that wash (where you saw the fence). I have GPS data of that part of the trail right now as I ran it with my GPS on a about 4 months ago SPECIFICALLY to see how far it is from the Boundary. If you guys blocked that off, that is also outside of the wilderness area. I will have lots of Data for you guys on Monday, from 2 GPS units and 3 top software mapping programs.

If it does indeed run outside the Wilderness boundary, then Mr. Lopez, you can educate us on what to do next.

Thanks for clarifying my thoughts.

[Blax Rubi]

Abendx-
As posted earlier in this thread, I had to step forward and admit that what I had done (the letter) and some of the points I made within the letter were wrong, as they were points passed along to me, and I had no factual or hard evidence to support some of the things I was told/believed. This may even be seen in my understanding or misunderstanding, of the need for certain exits when being in flash flood areas (as you mentioned in your earlier post). Again, I may have misunderstood this, and am completely open to the facts being given to me so that I can be clear on this and be able to educate others with the correct information… rather than continuing to spread things that have been passed along to me.

I understand that you respect the person who gave you the “reject” information and want to keep them un-named out of that respect. I am sure others might disagree, but this is fine with me. There is some good to be seen in standing up for someone or something that you do indeed have so much respect for.
We do not need to press you for this source. This is not fair to do to you when you are just being a good friend by sticking up for them and the information they had given you… and I myself would be a hypocrite for doing so (as we all have seen firsthand, I have done the same thing).

With that said, I want to point out the following;
Dirty L J: “Thank you for stepping forward and taking responsibility. I feel that is one of the things being lost these days, nobody wants to take responsibility.”

I am sure that if your friend feels as strongly as you do about the things they have told you, they can divulge all this themselves (but by starting a new thread… I know, I know, we are deviating from this Threads main topic). Just as seen with John, from CI4X4 (whom made many important points, and I have to say that I have so much respect for, and must thank) sometimes taking that moment out of your own time to address these things can really help educate others and smother any nasty incorrect information that is passed around.

SO! Is it time for that group hug and ass slapping yet?

[Desert Dog]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]SO! Is it time for that group hug and ass slapping yet?[/quote]
No...I think you need to go get Eddie from JK-Forum and bring him into this too. Not enough people yet

[Blax Rubi]

[quote="desert dog"][quote="Blax Rubi"]SO! Is it time for that group hug and ass slapping yet?[/quote]
No...I think you need to go get Eddie from JK-Forum and bring him into this too. Not enough people yet [/quote]


I think we know who is the one who likes to stir the Pot here Is that the woman in you who is trying to bring on a fight?
I am kidding. It's not like I would take that seriously, being that I added one to the dicussion (John) and Abendx mentioned it might be helpful to add to the discussion.
You were right that I should not have added people in to address the non-thread topic issues (rumors that he had been told) Nonetheless, john was able to clear that up, as well, do what you felt was needed; add some information and insight about the trail and clean ups. So, no harm, no foul.

I felt bad for not telling Kat and VC about this thread, as I felt like that was me not being supportive of a group that I think is so amazing.
But just felt that by saying something, it might stir something up that could have and should have just died down on it's own before she found it.
Kat is a strong and confident women who cares about that group and her friends, and she was bound to find it since it mentions the VC name.

No need for me to invite Eddie (not that I know him, just know about him)... although I do give you props for the humorious low blow
I will not take it as an insult as I am sure that is not as it was intended

[Blue 52]

A lot of good and bad points in this thread.
But ask yourself "What have I done to help not hinder the cause at hand? Trail Closures.
I myself is part of several forums and groups Like VC4WD, MJR, Pirate4x4 and others

I seen a lot of stone throwing on heresay from a friend of a friend. Really is this high school again?

Let get back to the issue here.

Yes we do ALL hate land closures, I myself is part of CORVA, CAL 4 Wheel, Blue Ribbon, Friends of the Rubicon. Friends of Johnson Valley and others.
So instead of stirring the pot, Honestly get involved.

Those said VC4WD is in with the Sierra Club Cmon really is this what you think? Far from the truth.

Now I have probably wheeled with a lot of you so lets hash this out and work TOGETHER. Geez
I would rather wheel than webwheel.

BTW for the wheel off lets do Sunbonnet at the Hammers
I havent been there since Tinbenders Jamboree. Thats a fun Trail. my $1.00 on the Yeller Jeep only because he is a freaking great guy and a good friend.
It would make a fun day of wheeling and we would learn more about each other.

Again lets work together not against each other.
My 2cents

[abendx]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]SO! Is it time for that group hug and ass slapping yet? [/quote]

Ass slapping.... goddesses... ummm, what were we talking about? Did someone say naked hood riding?

No worries... all threads go off topic a little (some a lot) and it's okay as far as I am concerned as long as there is enough meat and potatoes added now and again to keep everything on point. Which is occurring here. Some think there should be no deviance in a thread... but then that takes the fun out of it and no one really gets to know anyone.

I know that you made the earlier statement and backed out of it to some degree. You did take responsibility, as others have said, and that is admirable to me as well. The reason I continued to quote you, as that I assume it was not just all conjured up out of thin air (sources may or may not have an agenda), was that this particular point was predicated with a statement that you gathered that piece of info from a USFS Ranger (and friend). Maybe I misunderstood when you retracted and that is/was not the case?

Calling VC4WD out on this was maybe done in bad taste? Yes... I have been described as tactless, yet I will continue to stick by my guns that they are less, than would I consider, good for the off road community. As pointed out;

1. The Sierra Club feeds info to the USFS Ranger about where vehicles should not be.
2. The USFS Ranger instructs the VC4WD what to do.
3. VC4WD closes access to the trail as part of an "Adopt-a-Trail" project.

A question... did the Ranger or VC4WD verify the Sierra Club's information?

I am starting to think DESERT DOG should take up politics. He is quite the masturbater, umm.... master-debater.