Thoughts on future club alternatives to the Rubicon Trail

[robnoxious1]

LOL I was jesting about the newb thing, hell I was driven to the hospital to be born in a Jeep

Speaking of Air, dont let anyone buy Shittybilt compressors. Mine died trying to air up for the trip home from Monache, fortunately one of the guys I went in with helped me out. Went and got a Viair today, hopefully itll hold up.

Maybe if you emphasize the fact that you can DIE if not properly equipped?

Rob.

[Desert Dog]

[quote="robnoxious1"]Speaking of Air, dont let anyone buy Shittybilt compressors. Mine died trying to air up for the trip home from Monache, fortunately one of the guys I went in with helped me out. Went and got a Viair today, hopefully itll hold up[/quote]
I used a Viar 400p for years and it worked fantastic. When I got CO2, I gave it to Bigfoot, who has ran it over with his Jeep twice and it still works!!!! (I just bent the base and handle back to shape)

[Lake_v2]

I won't speak for Brad but I believe I know where he is coming from...he has been "that guy" in the past as have I

In my last club and internet run only group, I was that guy on my first run with the group.

It was my first run on trails in California, the group said they were running Awesome Canyon near Johnson Valley and one trail at Johnson Valley(aka the hammers)

Minimum posted trail requirements were 33" tires and at least one locker preferably a front locker.

I thought well I have 33" tires a rear limited slip, but I am a badass, so thats close enough.....

When I showed up at the trail head to meet the group I was a little taken aback, everyone had 35-39" tires and lockers on both ends.. and I had driven 3hrs to get there with both my munchkins in the jeep. At that point I was thinking to myself oh I sure hope they just brought overbuilt rigs to the trail ride.

Well I found out that they didn't bring guns to a knife fight, i had brought a pointy stick to a gunfight.

At the first trail I was doing ok but then came a squeeze/notch that was impassable by the jeep I had with me, had to be strapped off and after the guys strap broke, ended up being winched off.

The second trail in Jv was actually not as bad, had to be strapped out of one spot and made it rest of way unassisted.

But the whole time out there was like a job, fighting for every inch and hoping to not be strapped again, the whole group out there was waiting for my jeep to blow up or give up the ghost.

While I learned alot on that day and did have some fun, I was more stressed on that day off/play day than I ever wanted to be again.

Point being I actually prefer to have trail requirements or suggest equipment overstated, everyone in the group will have a better time and less chance of someone being "that guy".

The next time I went to JV with that group, I actually had my 33's in back of jeep and 35"s on it, sold the 33"s at the trail head, and went on to the trail with less stress and a metric shitton of more fun.

Some people/rigs have surprised me in my years of wheeling with what seems an underequipped rig making it through where it shouldn't but to be honest from my experience it's not all that enjoyable in that situation.

Bottom line to this ramble... know what you/your rig is capable of, if your not able to gauge what you can/can't do its best to ask, the worst that anyone can do is not give you a fair warning before your in a situation you don't want to be in.

[Lake_v2]

[quote="desert dog"][quote="robnoxious1"]Speaking of Air, dont let anyone buy Shittybilt compressors. Mine died trying to air up for the trip home from Monache, fortunately one of the guys I went in with helped me out. Went and got a Viair today, hopefully itll hold up[/quote]
I used a Viar 400p for years and it worked fantastic. When I got CO2, I gave it to Bigfoot, who has ran it over with his Jeep twice and it still works!!!! (I just bent the base and handle back to shape)[/quote]


I love my Viair 400c, lived for 7 years and two rigs on countless trips, mine is hardmounted, so unlike bigfoot I wont run it over....

[abendx]

Well said Matt!

[EJ21]

I agree with whitesnake and Brad. Being one of the newbies I know that I dont know what I dont know until someone tells me. For me, I would rather have it overstated and requirements posted. I do not want to hold the group back and be the reason someone is spending more time helping out then enjoying wheeling. I bought a different jeep and rebuilding it front to back just so I learn what I am doing so not helpless if something does go wrong on the trail.

I am learning the hard way with some help here or there for guidance but in the end hope to have enough understanding of the jeep and its limits. without putting anyone in harms way. I think the rotating degree of hardness runs is a great idea. gives guys like me the opportunity to get experience, learn what the vehicle can and can not do and build confidence leading up to the next run. If I struggle I know not to hit the hard rotation and make a few more intermediate runs until able to step up. DD's info he posted os vital to us who dont know any better just for lack of ignorance if anything else. Common sense to those who have been doing it awhile, but not to some one new.

[abendx]

Don't think we don't want to take you and your rig to its full potential and maybe even then some. We love some carnage around here.

[robnoxious1]

I actually had a similar experience to Lake_v2 on Bullfrog in JV. Me and my buddy both had Near stock JKU Rubi's, I was running a leveling puck kit and he has a 2 -1/2" BB. We asked several times if we'd be OK on the trail and everyone said "Oh yea you can bypass all the hard stuff". Anyways the Jeep did great and performed beyond my expectations, did the whole trail except for the V-notch and one rock ledge I couldnt get up on (one of the few places there actually was a bypass). I got high centered like three times but we were running with guys on mostly 35's and 37's on a trail where you needed much more clearance than I had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFobmzKzzZ8&feature=plcp
Good times.

Rob

[robnoxious1]

[quote="desert dog"][quote="robnoxious1"]Speaking of Air, dont let anyone buy Shittybilt compressors. Mine died trying to air up for the trip home from Monache, fortunately one of the guys I went in with helped me out. Went and got a Viair today, hopefully itll hold up[/quote]
I used a Viar 400p for years and it worked fantastic. When I got CO2, I gave it to Bigfoot, who has ran it over with his Jeep twice and it still works!!!! (I just bent the base and handle back to shape)[/quote]

Cool this is the one I got. Makes me feel better about the purchase hearing this.

[EJ21]

[quote="abendx"]Don't think we don't want to take you and your rig to its full potential and maybe even then some. We love some carnage around here.[/quote]

That is the part I am looking forward to.

[Goatman]

Part of the benefit of getting involved with a group is learning what to do, and learning where you can go. No one wants their vehicle to break on the trail, or to be the guy everyone has to help. Putting the info out there at least gives people a chance to learn what to do and what not to do. It's good to be all inclusive and give people an opportunity to get involved, it's also good to give people some info ahead of time to help them be prepared.

Back on topic, I think planning an IOR annual summer trip on the Swamp Lake trail is a very good idea. Having a schedule of four runs a year, one per quarter, that people could count on, prepare for, and look forward to is a very good idea. It seems like late spring there is already the Calico trip, summer could/should be Swamp Lake, fall is or could be JV for Goatfest, and the Gorman newb run is in winter. With a good set of quarterly trips, the months between would get filled in with various trips.

[Desert Dog]

Its been my experience that you will almost always have "that guy" in runs open to everyone. There are the guys with XJs/CJs/Toys held together with baling wire that barely run, but the owners believe that they have a solid build that can last for a week on Dusy. There are also the CI4x4 types that think their new JK sport is pretty hard-core, yet cant handle BC-109. Then there are the folks with absolutely no basic gear/tools/parts who attend runs with the expectation that everyone else is going to provide for them and pull them through most of the trail.

Like I stated in the Wheeling guide, everyone will break down and have a trail fail; that is an excepted part of wheeling. What pisses people off is those who set the run up for failure from the beginning. I have had people in this club actually tell me days before a run "my Jeep is running like shit, but if I break down, Ill just use your trailer to get home".

You will NEVER eliminate these folks from runs that are posted in public forums, because they don't see themselves as a problem. Some people are odd creatures and will completely disregard any common sense. ALL clubs deal with this, some better than others. The key is to minimize the effects by choosing these runs accordingly. Places like Freeway Ridge, Hungry Valley, Last Chance Canyon, Miller, and Sherman are great trails for these open runs because there is (usually) little harm done and virtually any good 4x4 will do them. These places are also fantastic ways for newbs to cut there teeth and gain skill. A moderate trail like Swamp Lake will be challenging enough to be fun for the built rigs, but not so bad that an underbuilt rig would spoil the trip.

If you want to plan really hard-core runs, I have found it better to not post it up for everyone to see. Ridgecrest is usually an "invite only" thing, and I can see why, as my rig is underbuilt for it. Lets say someone wants to run the con in one day or 3/4 of Dusy in a day; if they posted this run in a general forum, it will NEVER happen, it must be invite only. I go on JV trips every year that are invite only, but also do runs to JV like Goatfest that are open to everyone. Everything had its time and place.

[abendx]

[quote="desert dog"]Its been my experience that you will almost always have "that guy" in runs open to everyone. There are the guys with XJs/CJs/Toys held together with baling wire that barely run, but the owners believe that they have a solid build that can last for a week on Dusy. There are also the CI4x4 types that think their new JK sport is pretty hard-core, yet cant handle BC-109. Then there are the folks with absolutely no basic gear/tools/parts who attend runs with the expectation that everyone else is going to provide for them and pull them through most of the trail.

Like I stated in the Wheeling guide, everyone will break down and have a trail fail; that is an excepted part of wheeling. What pisses people off is those who set the run up for failure from the beginning. I have had people in this club actually tell me days before a run "my Jeep is running like shit, but if I break down, Ill just use your trailer to get home".

You will NEVER eliminate these folks from runs that are posted in public forums, because they don't see themselves as a problem. Some people are odd creatures and will completely disregard any common sense. ALL clubs deal with this, some better than others. The key is to minimize the effects by choosing these runs accordingly. Places like Freeway Ridge, Hungry Valley, Last Chance Canyon, Miller, and Sherman are great trails for these open runs because there is (usually) little harm done and virtually any good 4x4 will do them. These places are also fantastic ways for newbs to cut there teeth and gain skill. A moderate trail like Swamp Lake will be challenging enough to be fun for the built rigs, but not so bad that an underbuilt rig would spoil the trip.

If you want to plan really hard-core runs, I have found it better to not post it up for everyone to see. Ridgecrest is usually an "invite only" thing, and I can see why, as my rig is underbuilt for it. Lets say someone wants to run the con in one day or 3/4 of Dusy in a day; if they posted this run in a general forum, it will NEVER happen, it must be invite only. I go on JV trips every year that are invite only, but also do runs to JV like Goatfest that are open to everyone. Everything had its time and place.[/quote]

Hmm....

Invite runs suck.... no one likes me; therefore, no one will invite me!



As pointed out, we have all been "that guy" in the past and as you pointed out, there will always be one around. The idea is to limit the exposure as much as possible. I think education is the right way to do that. Maybe a little fear as well.... as in letting them know their rig might look like mine when they are done. And then the truth.... if they keep running with us they will likely become stupid and their rigs will look like Floppy's on flat ground. I can call a roll over on flat ground stupid, right?

Just fucking with you Floppy.

Maybe.... if there is a worry, we should do the hardcore runs as invite only. Leaving the other eight runs to whomever shows? Or do we want to stick to quarterly or just once a year?

I like Richard's idea of Swamp Lake and Goatfest.... BUT, aren't those other club's runs? I feel like our runs should be our runs.

[AJ99]

[quote="desert dog"]There are the guys with XJs/CJs/Toys held together with baling wire that barely run, but the owners believe that they have a solid build that can last for a week on Dusy.
[/quote]


Hey now i have only broken once and had to be towed out LOL. And that was becasue i blew up my transmission! Bailing wire is my best friend and should be in everyones box! LMAO

[abendx]

Baling wire, duct tape, 550 cord, and a knife will fix everything.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"]


Maybe.... if there is a worry, we should do the hardcore runs as invite only. Leaving the other eight runs to whomever shows? Or do we want to stick to quarterly or just once a year?

I like Richard's idea of Swamp Lake and Goatfest.... BUT, aren't those other club's runs? I feel like our runs should be our runs.[/quote]

I've been doing Swamp for 18 years. It's always been for anyone, though it started as a mostly SoCal XJ run, then was an official NorCal NAXJA Sierra Fest run for awhile, but it has always had lot's of local people. I think IOR should plan it's own Swamp Lake annual trip. If the SoCal NAXJA folks want to plan a run, they can do another one, or if only a few want to go they can tag along. I've always just gone, and invited whoever wants to go. I like going with my grandsons, and they love it, but I'm ready to pass the baton on to someone else as far as organizing a trip. We seem to usually have multiple groups going in, and multiple groups going out, the big thing is just picking a date and saying we're going. We've never had "too" many, and we've had 30+ rigs a couple of times. It does seem the more the merrier to some degree.

I should say that I like Swamp as a laid back, peaceful camping trip....as opposed to a party down time. I like great talks and times around the campfire, and all the fun and visiting that goes on. However, to me, the high Sierras, and a place like Grouse lake, has a special peacefulness about it that is very enjoyable, and I enjoy listening to the quiet. I prefer to not even have a radio on. I suggest that if you have trouble not having any background sounds on, you should make yourself enjoy the quiet, it could be good for you.

[abendx]

Umm.... wrong guy! I am with you Richard.... I like the quiet. Although, I think we are the minority. I cringe when they start partying late.... I am usually in bed before 10pm, yet know what kind of roulette wheel I'll spin if I am not the last to drop.

I am also with you on the more the merrier.... just think if we are having a club run, it should be OUR run. Inviting others is fine, as long as they know it is IOR's run. I have seen other runs, where other clubs were invited. They were clearly not our run, even though we organized it. I read Aldo labeled the Swamp Lake run you have as a NAXJA run and I thought Goatfest was that as well? If they are (or were)... that is great and I think we should participate... still, we should have our own runs I believe (and we can invite NAXJA, et al. to come play with us).

[chuckanut105]

Getting into this late but I like the Idea of monthly runs and having a variety of different skill level runs and also a variety of different places. As far as the run requirements that's why you have the m&g before the run. That way you can look at the persons rig before the run and they have time to get it fixed or told that your not quiet ready for the run. It sucks to be that guy left out but it also sucks to break and hold up the group.

[Desert Dog]

[quote="abendx"]Umm.... wrong guy! I am with you Richard.... I like the quiet. Although, I think we are the minority. I cringe when they start partying late.... I am usually in bed before 10pm, yet know what kind of roulette wheel I'll spin if I am not the last to drop.

I am also with you on the more the merrier.... just think if we are having a club run, it should be OUR run. Inviting others is fine, as long as they know it is IOR's run. I have seen other runs, where other clubs were invited. They were clearly not our run, even though we organized it. I read Aldo labeled the Swamp Lake run you have as a NAXJA run and I thought Goatfest was that as well? If they are (or were)... that is great and I think we should participate... still, we should have our own runs I believe (and we can invite NAXJA, et al. to come play with us).[/quote]
Definitely don't pass out first, you might get a Calico double sausage surprise!!!

Brad, the problem with "Club only" runs to remote places is that everyone signs up, but drops out in the last week or doesn't show. Except for the last Goatfest run where 8 IOR rigs showed, every single IOR JV run before that for years consisted of just Henry and I. Every year our Rubicon run is usually only about 2-5 rigs after 30 people commit to going. almost 10 rigs were supposed to go to Moab with me last year, and I ended up going alone and running with the JKO/Pirate guys. The last swamp lake run only had 2 IOR rigs, and both were from my house. Fact is that if we didn't attach ourselves to other groups, I would be alone on the trail 90% of the time. This isn't only an IOR problem, but all clubs experience this, and its getting worse. Richard and Jeremy are pretty much the only Trail Blazers that I ever see on the trail any more. I went on a VV4x4 club run 2 months ago that was supposed to be 30 rigs, but 4 showed. Our N/B&C, freeway ridge night runs, and AFD run are great IOR headline runs that get lots of participation, but anything farther than that will sadly not get the participation you desire from this club.

The fact of the matter is that:
1) We have become a society where no one likes to commit to anything and everyone loses interest fast. Big internet forums have big runs because they have a constant influx of newbs that are as diehard as a re-born Christian when it comes to wheeling, and they are quickly replaced by a new batch of newbs when the older ones lose interest (similar to the way churches and gyms work). There is always a small core group of OGs that keep wheeling, but the majority of participation is new blood. See, with a club you are expected to have at least minimal participation, but big internet forums don't give a sh!t what you do; if you don't show, nobody cares, just make up some lame excuse that nobody pays attention to because you are just a screen-name and not a face or friend - this is the commitment issue that everyone avoids like the plague in modern society. Attaching our remote runs to other runs is often what keeps the run alive. This is why a lot of Richard's activity revolves around NAXJA runs, and why a lot of mine revolves around JKO or Asylum runs. No club will match their number in this day and age. If we would have attached our Rubicon run to the JKO run (like I suggested), several IOR members would not have wasted their vacation time. You need to realize that although we can get almost 100 members to show for a big M&G at Chuys, you will never get even 20% on the trail at any given time (except for the newb/B&C run). This is why IOR is trying to bridge the gap between a traditional local club and an internet forum, but unfortunately, membership outside of Kern County has been extremely limited. While our numbers continue to increase in Kern County, they are on a decline elsewhere. This is something we need to fix.

2) Too many runs will get very little participation. Most clubs find this out fast, and try to plan only a few big runs a year and give advance notice so people can schedule vacation time at the beginning of the year. Clubs also quickly realize that the closer runs are to home, the greater the participation, this is why even the trailblazers cancelled their new years Calico run that they did for decades for something closer. Sure, small weekend runs can happen all the time - but if the club puts too much energy into constant big/far-way events, everyone will lose interest and move on to other hobbies. Most people have very busy lives, families, limited funds, and/or other interests that preoccupy their time. Wheeling is usually way down the list of priorities. I work 60 hour weeks, have football/soccer/karate, homework with the kids till 10:00 every night, manage IOR affairs, participate in gun club/shooting activities, turn wrenches on all of my off-road toys, keep up the house, scare boys away from my daughter, maintain a marriage, and then wheeling and sleep comes after all of that. People who last in this hobby do it in moderation so they don't get burned out or start neglecting their personal lives. Life is getting increasingly busier for the average American every day and there are only a handful of folks in the club with a lot of spare time on their hands.

[Crazy Sammy]

Hey desert dog my feelings are hurt because my rig is moderatly built and i havent got a invite to shit!!! i think i can handle some of those trips with my pour samurai! but on topic everyone has very good thought in explaining this. another thing to consider if you go on a trip knowing your rig isnt capable and you have to be towed out! i dont mind helping with anything thing i can or have but if it comes down to it i will help get you out but take into consideration that when people are being towed it puts twice even three time the strain on the rig towing so they have the chance to break their rig as well and then you have two rigs busted all because someone said that they can make it regardless and people tend to get really pissed when that happens so just listen to people and ask lots of questions and explain you rig fully so we the wheelers that have been there done that can help you out as best as possible with knowledge of the run. everyones rig is going to have a bad day that just happens because we dont replace everything new for every run but that is understandable! but just saying very well put everyone!

[Desert Dog]

[quote="Crazy Sammy"]Hey desert dog my feelings are hurt because my rig is moderatly built and i havent got a invite to shit!!! i think i can handle some of those trips with my pour samurai![/quote]
Definitely, your rig is to the point where it will spank mine (unless you need to go over 25mph )

You have a built rig, carry tools/spares, and know how to use them. After summer is over, there will be more "special runs" to places that vehicles don't belong. When word gets out that you give free hand jobs and can work a nipple, you will be invited to everything.

[Crazy Sammy]

Awesome thank you i cnat wait!!!

[Crazy Sammy]

Oh and it will go 65 with a tail wind down hill with alot of weight in it but i have to use low range to climb the uphill side!

[REDxj5150]

[quote="Desert Dog"]

2) Too many runs will get very little participation. Most clubs find this out fast, and try to plan only a few big runs a year and give advance notice so people can schedule vacation time at the beginning of the year. Clubs also quickly realize that the closer runs are to home, the greater the participation, this is why even the trailblazers cancelled their new years Calico run that they did for decades for something closer. Sure, small weekend runs can happen all the time - but if the club puts too much energy into constant big/far-way events, everyone will lose interest and move on to other hobbies. Most people have very busy lives, families, limited funds, and/or other interests that preoccupy their time. Wheeling is usually way down the list of priorities. I work 60 hour weeks, have football/soccer/karate, homework with the kids till 10:00 every night, manage IOR affairs, participate in gun club/shooting activities, turn wrenches on all of my off-road toys, keep up the house, scare boys away from my daughter, maintain a marriage, and then wheeling and sleep comes after all of that. People who last in this hobby do it in moderation so they don't get burned out or start neglecting their personal lives. Life is getting increasingly busier for the average American every day and there are only a handful of folks in the club with a lot of spare time on their hands.[/quote]

This is it! Commitment is elsewhere. I always try to stay a maybe up until a few days before, but I will always let you know if I'm not going to show. My health isn't what it used to be just a few months ago. I have a job that needs ample time to get time off, then I won't even be back on the rig when I get back to work. Things happen. It happened to me for sure last year 5 days before the swamp lake trip when my oldest brother was killed.

I think it's a good idea to have IOR tag along on Richard's swamp trip. It's always got a constant date (except this year). We may be piggybacking on someone else's trip, but it's a safety blanket for those of us that do go. Like many who have pointed out "the more the merrier" so why not go with another group? Another good point to this is that going with other groups gets exposure out for our group.

See, hypothetically, if last weekend was our official Swamp Lake run, and only 6 of us went, we only saw 6 other rigs the entire time in 3 different groups. That's not a whole lot of exposure, but say 30 other rigs go with us, and get to hang out with us then like how we operate and are attracted to our charismatic and suave members we could just make it out of a weekend with a few new members.

I'm for the idea of about 4 annual runs a year. I know I won't be able to make all of them, but it sure is nice to have choices. A whole 12 is just too many. Spur of the moment weekend day runs with up to 2 weeks notice are still good, and they're usually to the easiest of trails too. I'd say the mileage to these runs are usually within 75 miles from the point of origin. Of course you guys in the +40" club will always have your invite only runs; I just wish you'd invite passengers to experience hardcore runs also. Bottom line: I don't think we as a club should have a widely organized run that has been sitting on the damn "up coming runs" folder for 7 months which is 300-500 miles away.