Bylaws.....

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"][quote="Goatman"]Do you like to support causes that are important to you? Be a member.[/quote]

I asked this question prior, but I never got an answer?

I am supporting what... BRC? Gun Rights? Health Care? Financial regulation?

What causes are being supported directly with the funds collected from the paying member and how do I know they are issues *I* support?

Is the club getting into politics?





***** And I am sorry you all feel like I am making more out of this then needs to be. The club, which I am passionate about, has changed considerably and I want to know exactly how and what it means. If you all want to go through life blind, cool... enjoy yourselves.[/quote]


By causes I mean the cause of IOR. This stuff doesn't happen by itself. Someone pays for and runs the website, someone makes the stickers and t-shirts and handles getting them to people, someone handles the money involved, someone talk to the folks at Chuey's or whatever for the m&g's, etc. In addition to that, the group/club now has a better ability to have fund raisers so donations can be made to other groups that work to protect our ability to use the trails we need to participate in our hobby. I would bet that if more members join than is needed and there are extra funds, donations will be considered to support off road groups, like Stewards of the Sequoia, BEC, Friends of the Rubicon, Friends of Fordyce, etc.

I get you wanting to know, and I know I posted after you already said you got your questions answered. Not trying to be argumentative, just like keeping things simple, and really this whole thing is pretty simple. I guess I just have to disagree that the club has changed considerably. The life and function of this club is exactly what it has evolved to being, nothing has changed, but now it has some underlying structure to preserve it's function going forward. Not a big change, just another step in it's healthy evolution.

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"][quote="Goatman"]As far as insurance, the only time insurance will come into play is if the club gets sued. A member can't sue the club. So, there is no "insurance" for runs, just coverage for those who are members, and those who are organizers, if something bad happens and a law suit follows. So, a non-member sues the club, there is liability insurance to cover that......period. It has nothing to do with who's leading a run, who's on the run, what inspections there are, etc, just if a non-member sues the club for any reason. Obviously, any attorney or reasonable person will tell you that there are things that can be done to minimize potential liability, but that is a black hole to go down with very little return and best left alone.[/quote]


Please define "organizer" as you have utilized it.[/quote]


Organizer is anyone who could be conceived to be an organizer/leader of the club or any club activity in the event of a law suit.

[Desert Dog]

B-Rad.....all the protection you will ever need

[attachment=0]infect rubber.jpg[/attachment]

[abendx]

[quote="Goatman"]By causes I mean the cause of IOR. This stuff doesn't happen by itself. Someone pays for and runs the website, someone makes the stickers and t-shirts and handles getting them to people, someone handles the money involved, someone talk to the folks at Chuey's or whatever for the m&g's, etc. In addition to that, the group/club now has a better ability to have fund raisers so donations can be made to other groups that work to protect our ability to use the trails we need to participate in our hobby. I would bet that if more members join than is needed and there are extra funds, donations will be considered to support off road groups, like Stewards of the Sequoia, BEC, Friends of the Rubicon, Friends of Fordyce, etc.

I get you wanting to know, and I know I posted after you already said you got your questions answered. Not trying to be argumentative, just like keeping things simple, and really this whole thing is pretty simple. I guess I just have to disagree that the club has changed considerably. The life and function of this club is exactly what it has evolved to being, nothing has changed, but now it has some underlying structure to preserve it's function going forward. Not a big change, just another step in it's healthy evolution.[/quote]

Most of the things you listed are activities (running the website, distributing stickers, handling cash, interfacing with vendors, et al.). Are you insinuating that these positions (board members) should be paid positions? I don't really think that is what you are supposing, but I think that is what I am reading.

As with all my other questions... I am looking for clarity. Seeing I pitched my money at the "cause," I now feel I have free reign to ask as many pointed questions as I want to and feel that everyone of them should be answered. I have no idea what anyone's interests are (hidden or otherwise)... I know that I am concerned for the longevity of the club and maintenance of its ethos.

Maybe this will help..... let's say you own a XJ and then buy a k1500. If you pulled the body from the XJ and mate it to the frame of the chevy, have you not changed the vehicle considerably? The visual aspect has remained the same, but the foundation is completely different. This is what has occurred here... I am not saying it is positive or negative. I do not know and am trying to become informed to make an informed decision about what all of it means.

Understanding things completely is my formula for life and it has served me pretty well so far... if you have another paradigm that works for you, great... keep on keeping on! I will stick to what I know.

[abendx]

[quote="Goatman"]Organizer is anyone who could be conceived to be an organizer/leader of the club or any club activity in the event of a law suit.[/quote]

Okay.... you have further confused the matter.

They earlier stated that no indemnification passes from the club to the member (and I am talking specifically, the organizer of a run), now you say it does?

[abendx]

[quote="Desert Dog"]B-Rad.....all the protection you will ever need [/quote]


Can we get some of those made for Trevenia? It would be nice if IOR did some public service and quit spreading the Herpaids!

[abendx]

Also... if political donations are to be made, these should be very well outlined BEFORE someone pays for membership.

I would be pretty upset if my dollars ended up going to the Sierra Club, Handgun Inc, etc..

An idea would be to create a list in November of what orgs the club plans on supporting by percentage and distribute those funds in December of the following year.

[Desert Dog]

[quote="abendx"]Also... if political donations are to be made, these should be very well outlined BEFORE someone pays for membership.
[/quote]
Read the bylaws. Political donations are illegal for a 501(c)(7)

Im done with this thread

GJ, its all yours

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"][quote="Goatman"]By causes I mean the cause of IOR. This stuff doesn't happen by itself. Someone pays for and runs the website, someone makes the stickers and t-shirts and handles getting them to people, someone handles the money involved, someone talk to the folks at Chuey's or whatever for the m&g's, etc. In addition to that, the group/club now has a better ability to have fund raisers so donations can be made to other groups that work to protect our ability to use the trails we need to participate in our hobby. I would bet that if more members join than is needed and there are extra funds, donations will be considered to support off road groups, like Stewards of the Sequoia, BEC, Friends of the Rubicon, Friends of Fordyce, etc.

I get you wanting to know, and I know I posted after you already said you got your questions answered. Not trying to be argumentative, just like keeping things simple, and really this whole thing is pretty simple. I guess I just have to disagree that the club has changed considerably. The life and function of this club is exactly what it has evolved to being, nothing has changed, but now it has some underlying structure to preserve it's function going forward. Not a big change, just another step in it's healthy evolution.[/quote]

Most of the things you listed are activities (running the website, distributing stickers, handling cash, interfacing with vendors, et al.). Are you insinuating that these positions (board members) should be paid positions? I don't really think that is what you are supposing, but I think that is what I am reading.

As with all my other questions... I am looking for clarity. Seeing I pitched my money at the "cause," I now feel I have free reign to ask as many pointed questions as I want to and feel that everyone of them should be answered. I have no idea what anyone's interests are (hidden or otherwise)... I know that I am concerned for the longevity of the club and maintenance of its ethos.

Maybe this will help..... let's say you own a XJ and then buy a k1500. If you pulled the body from the XJ and mate it to the frame of the chevy, have you not changed the vehicle considerably? The visual aspect has remained the same, but the foundation is completely different. This is what has occurred here... I am not saying it is positive or negative. I do not know and am trying to become informed to make an informed decision about what all of it means.

Understanding things completely is my formula for life and it has served me pretty well so far... if you have another paradigm that works for you, great... keep on keeping on! I will stick to what I know.[/quote]


Wow! My friend, you are amazingly anal. I implied nothing about paid or otherwise. And I didn't refer to people doing those things as board members. I just said that some people have to do some things for this "club" to be what it is. because of the nature of our world, those people incur a liability. OK, what they do must be done, so how to minimize the risk that they are assuming? Incorporate first, and then get insurance. So, supporting is simply supporting those people figuratively and financially by being a member and allowing them to have a level of protection.

The club has added to it's abilities, it has not taken anything away. If Chris and GJ did this without telling anyone just to protect themselves, and paid for it themselves, there would be nothing to talk about. However, it is only fair to let members who desire to share the cost. Pretty simple.

OK, the club has changed. There was no foundation, and now there is one. Oh wait, yes there was a foundation, it was the relationships and commitment to each other, and the activities, that makes IOR what it is. You're making analogies, so how about this one. A couple who has been together for 10 years and is happily committed for life decides to make it official, legal, whatever the hell you want to call it, and gets married. I guess we can argue forever about what really changed in the relationship before the little certificate or after, but that to me is the closest analogy that could be made to what has happened to IOR.

As far as feeling that you have the right to ask as many questions as you want because you paid the money, well, I guess you do. This brings up the problem of people volunteering to lead and be active in organizations. Members have the "right" to expect certain things, but every one of those expectations requires time and effort on the part of the volunteers, who are volunteers. As long as expectations are reasonable, fine, but when it takes too much time to keep the "members" happy and meet their expectations, then the volunteer doesn't volunteer any more. So, yes, you have rights, please balance those rights with respect and appreciation for those you expect to meet those "rights".

[abendx]

[quote="Desert Dog"][quote="abendx"]Also... if political donations are to be made, these should be very well outlined BEFORE someone pays for membership.
[/quote]
Read the bylaws. Political donations are illegal for a 501(c)(7)

Im done with this thread

GJ, its all yours [/quote]

Are you sure?

[i]Lobbying/Political
- Lobbying or political activity cannot be the primary purpose of a 501(c)(7) organization
- 501(c)(7)s are permitted to limit their membership based on membership in a political party
- Political expenditures will, in most cases, incur a penalty tax.[/i]

With or without that info in mind.... do our donations to the Sierra Club consist of a "political donation" knowing that they will use that cash to fight the dirty access people?


And really... I am not sure what the problem is. You guys willingly took on these positions and have done all the prior research. I am unsure why it is a problem to educate the rest of us?

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"][quote="Goatman"]Organizer is anyone who could be conceived to be an organizer/leader of the club or any club activity in the event of a law suit.[/quote]

Okay.... you have further confused the matter.

They earlier stated that no indemnification passes from the club to the member (and I am talking specifically, the organizer of a run), now you say it does?[/quote]



WTF??

Think in terms of liability, and only in terms of liability. What might happen if something bad happens and there is a law suit. This is the only context to discuss this. A member can't sue the club, so no indemnity passes to the member for an injury or damage of their own. If something bad happens, it could be at a meet and greet, could be on a big club run, could be on a little run that someone posts up on the forum. If a visitor (for lack of a better term) gets hurt bad or dies, and the family decides to sue, they would look for what parties could be held liable. Anyone who could be considered an organizer/leader of the club, or anyone who could be considered as a leader of the run, could potentially get sued. The incorporation is a level of protection, that's all. There are laws that govern the liability of a club in that situation, that protect you. Without the "official" club each of us is left to deal with our own potential liability. The incorporation doesn't eliminate all individual liability, it simply adds a layer of protection.

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"]
Are you sure?

[i]Lobbying/Political
- Lobbying or political activity cannot be the primary purpose of a 501(c)(7) organization
- 501(c)(7)s are permitted to limit their membership based on membership in a political party
- Political expenditures will, in most cases, incur a penalty tax.[/i]

With or without that info in mind.... do our donations to the Sierra Club consist of a "political donation" knowing that they will use that cash to fight the dirty access people?


And really... I am not sure what the problem is. You guys willingly took on these positions and have done all the prior research. I am unsure why it is a problem to educate the rest of us?[/quote]

No problem, but it takes time. I'm answering you instead of doing other things I could be doing at work. I realize I have no obligation to do this, but I believe in the direction IOR is going, and since I have quite a bit of experience on this subject I'm OK with taking a little heat off of Chris and GJ and participating in the discussion. I refer to what I posted above about volunteerism.

I don't get why you're asking questions about political contributions. Nor do I get why you would use the Sierra Club as an example. There are organizations who work to protect our access to trails. Why wouldn't we give them some money now and then if we have the ability? Those decisions, if and when, would have to be made on a one time individual basis when there is either a determination to raise money for them or because there is excess funds that can be used for donations. No different from what has already happened a few times with IOR. Only now, we can have an actual bank account and Chris or whoever doesn't have to co-mingle funds with their own personal accounts.

[abendx]

Love your analogy Richard.... much better than mine and it proves my point much better than I think I have been making attempts to do so. If anyone feels that marriage doesn't change a relationship considerably, I have no idea what to say to them but to go get married and then report back once again!


[quote="Goatman"]So, yes, you have rights, please balance those rights with respect and appreciation for those you expect to meet those "rights".[/quote]

Hmm... I am actually offended that you said that. I do not feel that I have offended anyone nor do I feel that I have disrespected anyone in this thread.

[abendx]

[quote="Goatman"]Think in terms of liability, and only in terms of liability. What might happen if something bad happens and there is a law suit. This is the only context to discuss this. A member can't sue the club, so no indemnity passes to the member for an injury or damage of their own. If something bad happens, it could be at a meet and greet, could be on a big club run, could be on a little run that someone posts up on the forum. If a visitor (for lack of a better term) gets hurt bad or dies, and the family decides to sue, they would look for what parties could be held liable. Anyone who could be considered an organizer/leader of the club, or anyone who could be considered as a leader of the run, could potentially get sued. The incorporation is a level of protection, that's all. There are laws that govern the liability of a club in that situation, that protect you. Without the "official" club each of us is left to deal with our own potential liability. The incorporation doesn't eliminate all individual liability, it simply adds a layer of protection.[/quote]

Finally some MEAT!! Thank you Richard!

So.... in simple terms.

[color=#80FFFF]The insurance policy that the club is in the process of obtaining WILL cover the organizer/leader of a run that they posted up for participation in the IOR forums.[/color]

Is that correct or do I have it wrong?


Of course I understand lawyers will look at every conceivable route to get their money.

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"][quote="Goatman"]Think in terms of liability, and only in terms of liability. What might happen if something bad happens and there is a law suit. This is the only context to discuss this. A member can't sue the club, so no indemnity passes to the member for an injury or damage of their own. If something bad happens, it could be at a meet and greet, could be on a big club run, could be on a little run that someone posts up on the forum. If a visitor (for lack of a better term) gets hurt bad or dies, and the family decides to sue, they would look for what parties could be held liable. Anyone who could be considered an organizer/leader of the club, or anyone who could be considered as a leader of the run, could potentially get sued. The incorporation is a level of protection, that's all. There are laws that govern the liability of a club in that situation, that protect you. Without the "official" club each of us is left to deal with our own potential liability. The incorporation doesn't eliminate all individual liability, it simply adds a layer of protection.[/quote]

Finally some MEAT!! Thank you Richard!

So.... in simple terms.

[color=#80FFFF]The insurance policy that the club is in the process of obtaining WILL cover the organizer/leader of a run that they posted up for participation in the IOR forums.[/color]

Is that correct or do I have it wrong?


Of course I understand lawyers will look at every conceivable route to get their money.[/quote]


Yes, you have it wrong, and you have it right. The insurance, or the corporation, doesn't cover individual liability. If you get sued, you're on your own. However, if the club has either insurance or assets (or leaders have assets), then the attorney will go after whatever they think they can get something out of, and sue the club and/or it's leaders. This can take the heat off of the individual person, but not guarantee it. If you got named in a suit as well as the club, the insurance company would likely handle the bulk of the attorney fees involved, and if they pay and settle, your individual liability could be included. Also, laws governing the liability of clubs comes into play protecting you. If the club has insurance, then likely a law suit would be against the club. You should also have your own liability insurance on your vehicle, which most or all already have.

I also carry a personal liability umbrella for myself. I've been too involved in organizing things and leading runs and trips, and so have coverage for myself. It's a simple liability umbrella that you add to your car insurance and is relatively inexpensive. Just a good idea if you think you have more than average exposure or assets.

[AJ99]

OMFG.. Dude re-fn-lax. The club is the same as it always have been. Some of us just want to help it keep going and make it where certain people are not spending out of pocket expenses for the website and such. Just roll with it and see how it plays out.

[Goatman]

[quote="abendx"]Love your analogy Richard.... much better than mine and it proves my point much better than I think I have been making attempts to do so. If anyone feels that marriage doesn't change a relationship considerably, I have no idea what to say to them but to go get married and then report back once again!


[quote="Goatman"]So, yes, you have rights, please balance those rights with respect and appreciation for those you expect to meet those "rights".[/quote]

Hmm... I am actually offended that you said that. I do not feel that I have offended anyone nor do I feel that I have disrespected anyone in this thread.[/quote]


Guess that's a matter of opinion. A marriage can be good or bad I guess, but really, what changes with a marriage certificate? Nothing in the relationship itself changes. So, it's the expectations that change, which means it's the people who change. You can't help it if people decide to change their expectations because of a marriage certificate, or because of a club charter. It's a change of expectations that is the only real change, which is a personal decision and not inherent with a legal document. So, yes, thanks for making my point.

And if I offended you, then I'm glad I accomplished something. Damn, I didn't think that was possible. BTW, that was a generic comment thrown out to anyone reading.

[Crazy Sammy]

WOW THIS IS CRAZY! I HAVE DRANK 50$ OF ANYTHING WITH ALCIHOL IN IT AWAY IN A NIGHT SO WHAT IS IT TO GIVE BACK TO SOMETHING THAT GIVES YOU A GGOD TIME AND GREAT FRIENDS AND JUST NOT WORRY ABOUT THE INSURANCE HOPEFULLY WE NEVER NEED IT SO NOBODY GETS HURT! EITHER WAY PEOPLE MAY NOT UNDERSTAND THATS WHY WE ARENT RUNNING IT! BUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SEEM TO BE GOOD PEOPLE AND WOULD STEER YOU WRONG! JUST MY THOUGHTS NOBODY LIKES PAYING TAXES AND YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE THAT MONEY GOES SO ATLEAST YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET A STICKER AND HAND SHAKES AND A DAM GOOD TIME OUT OF THE MEMBERSHIP! I REPRESENT THE CLUB THAT I AM A MEMBER OF WITH MY RIG MY SHIRTS AND BIG DOOR STICKERS AND I DONT UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING BUT I DO UNDERSTAND OUR DRINKING CLUB HAS ROCK CRAWLING PROBLEM SO LETS PUT THIS ALL BEHIND AND GET ON THE DAM TRAILS SOMEWHERE!!!!! please

[abendx]

[quote="Crazy Sammy"]WOW THIS IS CRAZY! I HAVE DRANK 50$ OF ANYTHING WITH ALCIHOL IN IT AWAY IN A NIGHT SO WHAT IS IT TO GIVE BACK TO SOMETHING THAT GIVES YOU A GGOD TIME AND GREAT FRIENDS AND JUST NOT WORRY ABOUT THE INSURANCE HOPEFULLY WE NEVER NEED IT SO NOBODY GETS HURT! EITHER WAY PEOPLE MAY NOT UNDERSTAND THATS WHY WE ARENT RUNNING IT! BUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SEEM TO BE GOOD PEOPLE AND WOULD STEER YOU WRONG! JUST MY THOUGHTS NOBODY LIKES PAYING TAXES AND YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE THAT MONEY GOES SO ATLEAST YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET A STICKER AND HAND SHAKES AND A DAM GOOD TIME OUT OF THE MEMBERSHIP! I REPRESENT THE CLUB THAT I AM A MEMBER OF WITH MY RIG MY SHIRTS AND BIG DOOR STICKERS AND I DONT UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING BUT I DO UNDERSTAND OUR DRINKING CLUB HAS ROCK CRAWLING PROBLEM SO LETS PUT THIS ALL BEHIND AND GET ON THE DAM TRAILS SOMEWHERE!!!!! please [/quote]

[abendx]

And still awaiting an official answer on many of my questions.