BC109.

[abendx]

We differ... I see all kinds of problems with a supposed 4x4 club helping the Sierra Club close trails.

Fuck them.

[Dirt Princess]

[quote="desert dog"]
Let me clarify, that I see no problems with BC109 run reports and directions to the trail - its a public trail for us all to enjoy. My problem is when people post GPS [u][b]ROUTES[/b][/u] online. The upper trail runs on the border with the designated wilderness area, and its easy for someone who doesnt know to stray into the wilderness. The first time the environazis go up dry canyon and see tire tracks in the wilderness area - everything will be off limits.[/quote]

Here's the thing how are we to know what gps points are ok and what aren't? Having run the trail one time, and had a great time but I can see where there will be issues given that there is no exit. Turning around with a big group sucks! I think that is more of a negative then anything else for this trail. And having a 4x4 group adopting the trail I think is better then having no one involved with it to make it that much easier to close down.

[Desert Dog]

[quote="Dirt Princess"]Here's the thing how are we to know what gps points are ok and what aren't? Having run the trail one time, and had a great time but I can see where there will be issues given that there is no exit. Turning around with a big group sucks! I think that is more of a negative then anything else for this trail. And having a 4x4 group adopting the trail I think is better then having no one involved with it to make it that much easier to close down.[/quote]

Thats exactly the problem with posting GPS routes; you don't know if the guys path you are taking is legal or not. If it is an illegal route - it just got posted up for thousands of people to follow. Now a GPS coordinate to a trail head, or GPS routes in "open" areas are fine because there is no possibility of posting an illegal route. This one trail is particularly sensitive because it runs literally "FEET" away from Federally protected wilderness in some spots.

There are many recognized 4x4 trails that have no exit, and require exiting the same way you enter. Definitely sucks with a big group, but I have never heard of this as a reason to shut a trail down. And although that closed trail can be challenging, it is no more dangerous than any other trail, and actually has less flash-flood danger than the main wash they left open.

Having a trail adopted by a 4x4 club does nothing to prevent it's closure. Don't believe that hype. Many formerly adopted trails are closed right now, and many more on the way with legislation like the Desert Protection Act. Adopt-a-trail simply means that a club undertakes the responsibility of working with the forestry service to maintain that trail. FACT: the Forestry Service does not care if a trail remains open or closed, they claim to be a neutral entity in the fight, and simply enforce laws passed by our legislatures. Where the Forestry Service does seem to act independent of this, is under pressure of law suits - which is the main tactic of groups like the Sierra Club. Ask a club that currently has adopted trails, and they will tell you that they are left out of the loop on everything except those "clean-up days".

Adopt-a-trail is a good thing because it shows that our community is taking responsibility for our actions, and is a significant cost savings to the Forestry service. But don't think for a second that it prevents trail closures. Only law suits do that.

Wait till 2011, when all of the Fresno area mountain trails are closed for 9 months each year to protect a toad that is not on the endangered species list and not one example of a dead one has been found. (yep, you won't be able to run Dusy until August).

[VICTORG93307]

Are you serious, a damn toad???????

[Blax Rubi]

I would like to begin this reply with one truly heartfelt sentence; I am very sorry, and I was wrong.
Long story short, I was the one who wrote the letter that was posted by Dirt princess. The fact of the matter is I think I was given the wrong information… had it all compiled into one letter, had several people (from other sites and clubs add to it or take info out of it) review it and was asked to send it off to her (this is by no means her fault, she had no idea of the specifics behind the letter). As completely embarrassed as I am about this misunderstanding, I am even more so pissed off for feeling taken advantage of. I wheel with many groups and have always been seen as a mediator between them and people that do not get a long and I feel that when it came to that letter, I had that position manipulated and here I am holding the BS stick.
I agree with everyone that if I did not have the full information confirmed, I was better off keeping my mouth shut. I also should not have let so many people add to the letter and let it stand as something that I had written on my own, as only a portion of the letter was my own voice. I have nothing but respect for some of the people I have met on this site, as well as for the off-roading community.
I feel like a complete @$$ and agree with all the things people will have to say to me. As some of you might know, I am not a direct club member of any group and just join in with everyone because I have a common love, Off-roading.
As much as I hope that this can be something that would be put behind us, I also feel that as the dumbass that let that letter be sent, I deserve everything that can be said to me. I wish that a trip to see you guys and a round of beers could put this to rest, but I realize that it is not that simple. I am a person that believes in taken responsibility, and so here I am, putting myself out there to take what I deserve.
Again, I am sorry.

[Dirty LJ]

Blax Rubi, Thank you for stepping forward and taking responsibility. I feel that is one of the things being lost these days, nobody wants to take responsibility.
This is a very sensitive topic with all of the current legislation going through about our trails.

You are always welcome with this group.

[Desert Dog]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]I would like to begin this reply with one truly heartfelt sentence; I am very sorry, and I was wrong.
Long story short, I was the one who wrote the letter that was posted by Dirt princess. The fact of the matter is I think I was given the wrong information [/quote]

No apology necessary at all (especially from an off-road goddess like yourself). Regardless of where you got the information, you brought up some valid questions and gave us some insight on what the Forestry Service reasoning was. No harm done at all . I lack many of the details, and I could be the one that is wrong. As you may have figured out, I already know the source of that info that you compiled . Thank you for caring about the issue enough to research it yourself.

[abendx]

Off Road Goddess? Now we have two of them? Crap.... I am going to take two hours getting my hair ready before the next mall crawl trip just in case one of these "goddesses" show up.

But yeah... thanks for standing up and taking some responsibility. It won't help the current situation, but maybe the next person will see this before they let the environmentalists take advantage of their good intentions.

[Dirt Princess]

Blax Rubi.........I want to buy you a beer next time we see each other......

[Blax Rubi]

[quote="Dirt Princess"]Blax Rubi.........I want to buy you a beer next time we see each other......[/quote]

It could have been tonight, but of course I am stricken with this feeling
------->
There will always be "next time" and I still want to stick with the beers + hugs + mud + beers + Jeeps... offer

[Blax Rubi]

[quote="Dirty LJ"]Blax Rubi, ...
You are always welcome with this group. [/quote]

Thank you, and I think I will hold you to that.
Hope to see ya'll soon

[Blax Rubi]

Thank you very much for your understanding guys.... and I will keep an eye on here to see if I can make it out to some runs with you!
I feel like there should be a group hug here... or at least a good ol' "Atta boy" butt slap

[castor07jk]

[quote="Blax Rubi"]I feel like there should be a group hug here... or at least a good ol' "Atta boy" butt slap [/quote]


How about a goup hug with a Atta Boy

[abendx]

I'm liking this... women, booze, and bare assed butt slapping.

This is something I can get into... do all trail closures come with this kind of bonus package?

If so.... I might have to infiltrate the Sierra Club's inner circle just to find out when the next trail closes and to get on whomever is behind it.

[Bert338]

Damn, I'm going to have to throw a bucket of cold water on this thread.

[abendx]

So today, I was asking a friend that knows these people about who they were.

Apparently VC4WD club is a bunch of rejects from CI4x4 and Point Mugu 4x4 clubs. When I say rejects... I am not talking the good kind. Several stories were told that make me dislike the bunch on principle.

Furthermore I found out that they have assisted the USFS on several occasions, closing trails and other nasty stuff.

Boys and girls... these are the kind of people we don't want to be associated with. They are the scum of the earth and full blown Sierra Club lackeys.

[Angel]

So much ANGER..... WOW

[Desert Dog]

FYI:

Email I recieved from Ventura County 4WD;

[i]"Thank you for your interest in Ventura County 4 Wheel Drive. Upon review of a thread on Infectious Offroad we will be removing your membership. If you had or have questions regarding the posting of a sign in front of a wildreness area we would have been more than happy to answer them. Instead you choose to not only misrepresent our group on another site, but to copy and post pictures from our site to theirs.

If you feel we are removing you for the wrong reason, or if you still have questions regarding our participation in the Adopt-a-Trail program we would be more than happy to speak with you. All you need to do is reply to this email.

Enjoy the trails.
http://vc4wd.webs.com/"[/i]

And my Reply:

[i]Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to open up a dialoge with me. I did sign up for your website because that is the only way to read material related to this closure, and I percieved it to be the only way to directly ask questions related to this matter - which in the end, your website would not let me do (said I do not have permission to view). Also, I respectfully accept your decision to ban me from your group for disagreeing with your group's involement in this.

Regarding your comment in this email about the closure of Staggletooth Canyon as a "wilderness area"; you have been given false information, as this trail is just south of the wilderness boundary. There is a clearly marked fence on the north side of the wash marking the wilderness boundary line, and folks have been running this wash for decades with no issues. Please read, and direct your members to read, the Infectious thread in its entirety, and feel free to join in too (I promise we will not ban you).

I did not download and re-post any pictures from your website as you accuse me of doing because your forum would not give me permission to view those threads. I downloaded those pictures from two other forums, were YOUR members freely posted them, along with explanations from your members as to the activities that your club was engaged in and an open invitation to join. I had never heard of your organization before seeing those posts, and I respectfully invite you to freely discuss the issue at http://www.infectiousoffroad.com.

Warm Regards,

Chris Rogers
"Desert Dog"[/i]

[TheBigDogg]

[abendx]

Chris... you bad boy, joining the band, once again.

Any forum that has such a heavy screening process before you can post or even view, must be trying to hide something. In the case of this club, they seem to want to hide their proud history of closing trails.

I second Harry's

[Hot4jeepin]

Desert Dog,

Thank you for inviting me to join in the discussion. I apologize for not understanding clearly where you gained access to pictures of our group. I was unaware that they were posted on any other site. As of yesterday our pictures were locked to members only, previously they could be viewed by anyone who happened upon on our site. I am not sure what information you were not able to view. Our section on Trail Adoption is open to anyone to view. The first page of our site also contains an email address that can be used if anyone has comments or questions.

I have not banned you from our site, as I said in my email, if you feel that I removed your membership for the wrong reason, we would be happy to add you back.

[abendx]

[quote="Hot4jeepin"]Thank you for inviting me to join in the discussion.[/quote]

Of course... we don't remove people for having opinions that differ from our own and we freely welcome those that wish to discuss anything. The same cannot be said of your website, you did remove DESERT DOG, correct? You do not let anyone view your site without approval, correct?

[quote="Hot4jeepin"]I have not banned you from our site, as I said in my email, if you feel that I removed your membership for the wrong reason, we would be happy to add you back.[/quote]

Really? Removing him from your membership cannot be likened to banning?

[Desert Dog]

Kat, your email stated that my membership had been cancelled, is that not politically correct talk for being banned from the site? Not that I really care , just sayin

You stated that your club saved Dome Springs from closure so I called the Mt. Pinos ranger district and asked about past plans to close Dome Springs CG in 2011. She told me that she had never heard of that, but to check the website because all projects, closures, and proposals are listed on there for the public to see. I went through three years of info and saw nothing about this? Do you have a link because I like to stay on top of these issues with local trails?

Kudos to you guys for cleaning up the mess in the main wash, I know we Jeepers pick-up trash over there a lot, but some of that stuff was just too damn big to pack out! Thank you for doing that.

You state that the official reason that the trail closed is because it crosses the wilderness boundary. If that trail does indeed go into the Wilderness area, you are right and I would be wrong. I am going up to BC109 on Monday to test out my new Hydro ram. I will walk the trail with my GPS unit and download my tracks to the computer. If it does indeed go into the wilderness area, I will humbly eat crow. If not, then you guys got some splain'in to do.

I will post up results on Monday night.

Have a good independence day!

[Dirty LJ]

Hey guys, remind me never to cross Desert Dog and Abendx

[Blax Rubi]

Wow, I guess things have heated up a bit since I was on here last

It is a really good thing that there is some open coversation on this topic and hopefully everyone can work out any questions there might be on this matter... as I am sure we can all agree, this is the only way to get the facts straight.
With that said, I hope that no one minds but I will text or email Bull dog, one of the Main mods from CI, to please join in on this thread as sometimes, this is the best way to get answers from a main source (in regards to the clubs getting along or not). I think everyones voice should be heard in all this. Being that both Kat and Bull Dog know eachother, hopefully they will both be available to answer these questions and facilitate in creating a resolution to anything that needs to be addressed